" Not a smart move there Ray to give the new tax money you get from the out of state job holders to the county. Where do you think that money is going to go? Oh sure, some will wind up in Ontairo but the majority will be spread about the county. You will impose a new tax that will not even come close to fixing your problem. "

" I appreciate you both getting back on here and responding to my questions. I grew up in this town and have choosen to settle down here for my own reasons. I am just tired of everyone acting like there are no solutions to our problems and that it is somehow too late to fix things. I appreciate you getting on here and sharing another idea about how to deal with the issues that continue to plague this community, as well as others here in Eastern Oregon. It is time to stop complaining about everything and start finding solutions. This seems like a viable solution to me. I am tired of so many of the folks who have decent jobs in this town choosing to live somewhere else. Something needs to be done.

Thanks for the ideas and the response. "

" To young and smart. If I were you, I’d copy and paste this entire blog site before it is archived (lost forever) and forward it with your own comments to elected city and county officials and city managers around Malheur County. My sense is that the “Use Tax” would have to be imposed at the Malheur County level. It would be easier, in my view, to get the County Commissioners on board then it would be to get the several City Councils to rule separately on such an issue. If the Commissioners were to choose to put the item on a ballot, I think it would pass with a substantial majority, just because it taxes “others.”

You might emphasize that it is the entire county that has been impacted by State tax and land use policies and that it is time for the County to take control of its own destiny before it completely crumbles in disrepair.

There is a lot of opposition within city governments to increase any taxes. They rightly feel that government should live within its means just as any other entity must. This is where the salesmanship will come in. You will have to convince these various entities that Malheur County can only regain control of its future by forcing the reversal of the behavioral changes that have plagued the county for the past 35 years. You say you’re too young to understand what happened, but you also seem intelligent enough to understand that prices change behavior. You probably have observed that people will drive ten miles to save a penny or two on a gallon of gas, or drive 100 miles to save $15.00 in sales taxes on a lawnmower or a hundred 2x4’s, then you can certainly understand how differences in policies that gave those living in Idaho huge economic advantages over those in Oregon have changed behaviors over the years to the detriment of Malheur County.

As often is the case, governments add programs to offset the effects of bad law. In this case, the State has funded massive economic development programs that consume millions in lottery and tax dollars but they really only buy more Bureaucrats. Check out Oregon Blue Book pages on the internet. Also, look at Oregonprospector.com. All of this massive spending from Salem has done nothing to mitigate the damages the State policies have wreaked on Malheur County and all of the other border communities in Oregon. The Pols in Salem know full well what is going on but we don’t count out here on the fringes of the State.

If you feel you cannot do any of these things yourself because of “exposure” and possible retribution, you need to find someone to carry the ball for you. And you will need to find a bunch of like-minded people to be members of the team. Good luck. Ray "

" Your interest is a good thing. The conversation has been ongong for years now. The Citizens elect representatives to serve on the City Council to represent them at the level of City Government. The City has all of the power and tools it needs to raise funds to serve its citizens. The problem is electing people with the backbone to do the right thing not the popular thing. Please get involved but be prepared it is a lot of work and most of the time it is a thankless job.Someone has to do it,the better people we get the better off we all are. "

" So, as someone too young to really understand alot of what has gone on before, what Ray is proposing here sounds pretty logical to me. I was in favor a city sales tax for the same reason, people from Idaho work in this community and use our infrastructure, but don't have to pay for it. I am very much in favor of anything that helps generate funds from those who choose to live outside of our community, while holding down some of our best local jobs.

My question is where does this discussion need to start? This is where the young and dumb part comes in. Is this something that the city can do on its own, or is this the sort of thing that needs to happen at the state level? "

" Bill. Forgive me, as I fell into the trap of using terminology I thought everyone accepted as describing the income of those citizens no longer in the workforce, living on pensions, annuities, social security, etc. Even though some of these incomes are adjusted to the CPI (Consumer Price Index) or minimum wage rates, they are consider “fixed,” as in stabilized. Obviously, others might think there is a lot of other wages that need to be “fixed,” as in repaired. Thanks! "

" Ray I agree with most of what you profess. Your use of the term fixed income however is a mystery to me. If you are refering to the folks who live on social security you are incorect. Social Security benifits increase each year based on a formula. the past 3 years SS benifits have increased over 3% each year. I work and my pay check has increased about 2% compared to the so called fixed income people at over 9% "

" All. What all of this has to do with the reconstruction/repair of the underpass, is that Ontario is a poor community, in part made that way by Oregon laws and policies that adversely impact it, which have changed public behavior over the years. Much of the middle class has moved to Idaho, not because schools were better but because homes cost less money (residential taxes are perceived as being lower) and a bigger selection was available, which then gave those communities the tax base needed to support new schools. This migration left behind those depending on Oregon social benefits, the higher income double income no kids types (DINKS) and the elderly, who mostly live on fixed incomes. The per-capita income of those left behind in Ontario is about one-half that of the remainder of Oregon. In fact, the benefit package of the average government employee is roughly equal to the per-capita income of the average Ontario citizen. The point is, while people in government and politics see and want all of the infrastructure work to be done to keep the community safe and sound, there is a real possibility that the money is simply not there. The day may come when the underpass is simply closed and traffic is directed over the tracks at alternative crossings. That would be a disaster, but it may be where we’re headed as a community if the border-town effect of Oregon laws and taxes are not changed. On the other hand, I’ve driven through underpasses in some of the big cities in America in the last few years, that make the one here in Ontario look really great.

As for the wages, the writer is correct. The average of wages for comparable positions in cities of similar populations are used to determine appropriate salary ranges. However, when we are the poorest city of all the comparables, the employees here are always at an advantage when wages are based on the average of the comparables. The employees here may always be at the low end of the comparables but much higher than , in fact, close to double, what similar private sector jobs pay in this community, when benefits are considered as part of salary. And, not only must we pay those higher wages, we are also expected to pay for the upgrade of the infrastructure.

Please look at my original post on this subject. It explains how to raise the money needed to do what most of you seem to want: higher wages for yourselves and an improved infrastructure. I might add that the “Use Tax” I suggested is in place in Pennsylvania and possibly other states, with considerable success. "

" So please explain to me what this has to do with the City trying to pay for repairs or replacement of the Idaho Ave. underpass a key component of Ontario's infrsstructure? It appeats to me that Ontario has for to long lived off of the assests paid for by our forfathers without saving for tomorrow. What a shwme to make such a fundamental mistake. "

" This is a pretty typical Rayism if you spout something loud enough a certain part of the community will believe it. For those of you who don't have the time to look at ORS 243.746 (4) (E), it has nothing at all to do with setting public employees wages. It does define what a comparable is. The City of Ontario knows what the comaprables are, they just choose not to pay them. "

" Ray, let me assure you, at the city of ontario, the positions are always looked at as fully burdened. As much negative stuff that is written in these blogs about the city, a person might be amazed at how much is done right down there. The council and employees struggle to find a "painless" cure for the general fund crisis while trying to keep the public works side from sliding into finacial problems too. I think the council and budget committee met Thursday afternoon. I hope the citizens realize how much time and effort they will put into finding answers. I suggest anyone with any doubts or questions, come to the budget hearings that will take place early next year. "

" So much to write about and so little time. Per-capita income in Ontario is less than one-half the Oregon average, which is well below the national average. The primary reason is that so many local high-rollers live in Idaho while earning their bucks in Oregon. The average for those left behind in Malheur County is what causes this community to suffer a bit. Without the half of government employees living in Ontario, and the Hospital Staff that lives in Ontario, to boost the income average, the per-capita income may well be that of many third world countries. I’m thinking it probably would be less than $12,000.

I never once said the government employees were overpaid. Anybody who works for someone else limits their life to whatever that entity is willing to pay them for their labor, be it government or the private sector. What government employees so often fail to realize is what they cost the “folks” versus what they take home. One thousand dollars a month for health insurance, PERS, etc, bring about costs to the public that can exceed 50% of wages. That is, someone claiming to make $36,000 annually, may cost the public another $18,000, for a total of $54,000, or much more. Public employees need to look at the budget line item for their position rather than what their paycheck says to understand what they’re really earning. To get a much clearer picture they need to look at what someone in the private sector doing the same work is earning.


As for the ORS that establishes salaries, I suggest you talk to your Union Rep or HR Specialist, to have them explain how the salaries are determined. They’re different for represented and non-represented employees. Try ORS 243.746 part 4 section E. "

" I'm resting my case too.....for a while anyway. "

" I forgot one thing, when is the Argus ever going to break the news story that Councilman Tuttle has resigned his seat on the council? Must not be newsworthy seeing how everything is running so smoothly at the Ontario City hall. "

" It seems odd to me that if 35% of jobs in Malheur Co are over paid goverment workers, how could the county be so depressed? You'd think with all that money flowing around here we'd all be oooozing in cash. I know I risk another long but nevertheless enlightining explination by writing that. Don't take it as a negative comment, I think Mr Dickerson's contributions raise the average quality of the blogs. "

" Seems to me one of the biggest problems Ontario faces are the number of self profesed idiots we have. They spout off about this law and that law or this underpass or that street and they usually dont have a clue what they are talking about. Just look at our Mayor Sloppy himself, I rest my case. "

" Ray I think he has you on that one,oh well it made for a good story for a while. "

" Ray, could you give me the ORS number of the law that sets the city employee wages. Over the last eight years my salary has not kept up with inflation, so if you could give me the number of that law if will get the Oregon State Police to open up an investigation on the Ontario City Council. By the way my living wage also has increased as much as your goernment pension has over the last several years. "

" Ontario’s problems, mostly economic, stem from the town having been crippled by Oregon State land use laws since the mid-seventies, which has made it easier and less expensive to build homes in Idaho than here in Ontario; thus, those with the wherewithal have often opted to live in Idaho and work in Oregon. More recently, the 40% difference between the minimum wage rates for Idaho and Oregon have also contributed to this crippling in that potential job producing enterprises, given a choice, tend to shy away from the higher wage communities. Add to this, the more attractive “social benefits” Oregon offers and you can begin to see why we have suffered a bit in comparison to some of our neighboring communities. It probably is also worthwhile mentioning that City Employee wage rates are established by State Statute, which give local leaders very little control over what they must budget and pay for their help. Longer term, the economic impact has resulted in some deterioration of the infrastructure for which there is little doubt. It has also caused school bonds to fail as those left in the Ontario School District to pick up the pieces increasingly dug in their heels in opposition to what they saw as a loss of control over the future of their own community, and it is not getting any better.

While many feel the solution to all of the problems in town can be summarized in three words: money, money, money, that is simply not the case when the other issues remain unresolved.

However some of the issues could be mitigated by increased revenue by taxing those who live in Idaho and work in Oregon in the form of a “use” tax. This idea was considered by the Ontario Revenue Committee but apparently did not survive. It would, however, be politically popular with Ontario residents and not so popular with Idaho residents, but then they don’t have a vote so why should it really matter. A tax of 6% of wages for those out-of-state residents working in Oregon would help pay for the streets they use while traveling to and from work and while shopping in our town to avoid the Idaho sales taxes. It would make true the limerick: “Don’t tax you, don’t tax me, tax that guy behind the tree.” It would possibly stop the exodus to Idaho and motivate many to reconsider their decision to live in Idaho. Their move back to Ontario would increase residential building and the tax base and also improve support for our schools and community recreation programs such as the swimming pool, golf course, etc.

Since about 35% of jobs in Malheur County are government jobs and, I have seen estimates that place 50% or more of the holders of these jobs as living in Idaho, the revenue could be substantial. The underpass and much other infrastructure and schools problems could probably be resolved, while resolution of the other issues listed above are being worked on. "

" Our genius Mayor needs to be very careful, practicing engineering without a license is against the law. "

" Maybe the right answer to some of these problems is to look at new managers for the city. It should start with the mayor and a recall action. I don't believe we can afford on the job training anymore especially when we have a slow learner. "

" It is like watching a re-run of Bonanza, We have little Joe the Mayor running amuck and Has (Tuttle) showing us just how big and dumb he really is.. "

" Mr Domonoick has now become an engineer and it seems like the bicycle is again valubale, at least as long as it helps pay for the fixin of that underpass. I thought the Mayor was against bicycles. I'm sure that ODOT got that message clearly from him at a downtown revitalization meeting. Of course with Mr Tuttle asking for the bicycle money, maybe ODOT will forgive and forget. Mr Tuttle? Mr Tuttle? Where have you got off to? He seems to have disappeared and all that is left of him is his grin! Hmmm, maybe if we ask nice, Mr Gaskill or Mr Allen will come back and lend a hand. "

" City Boy: The bond wasn't asking for more money for teachers. I think the teachers are just fine. It's the actual structures that are the problem. How can I do a good biology lab if I don't have lab tables? How can I do state testing when there aren't enough computer labs? Or, for that matter, where can the students type their research papers? Where do we cram another 50 lockers? Perhaps some air conditioning that worked in the summer and some heaters that worked in the winter would be nice for the learning environment, too. "

" Nutty Norm has ALL the answers. "

" If we had better schools, maybe they could hire better teachers who would be able to turn out someone smart enough to figure out how to fix all the problems these idiots (not just the ones we have now) have left us with. "

" The ODOT Bigshots in Salem are still laughing about pawning the underpass off on the city. No? check it out... Nose is right the last public works director had nothing to do with this issue. The State as usual held Ontario hostage in this situation. Take the underpass or we withhold the money. That's the same game the feds play with the states. I am reasonably sure had the city had a backbone and stood up to the ODOT the beltline would have been built anyway. Most of you have no idea the problems that exist with this structure. Does anyone have any idea how the water is removed after a storm? How the ever present ground water is removed. A very expensive pump that takes constant maintence . Ah well you get the picture. Its a very expensive structure to maintain. That's why the ODOT folks were real happy to be rid of it "

" To "Thats OK" and "Exciled".....LOLOLOL has been around long before texting was even an idea, much less a reality.....It's a way of showing laughter, merth, merriment on the computer.......

By the way, Thats OK, I never descibed myself as dumb. Simply because one is not college educated, or rich, does not mean they are automatically dumb.

No need to thank me for explaining the LOLOLOL, glad I could be of service.....

Have yourself a nice day and a lovely little Christmas......LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.... "

" Wrote describes himself as a poor, dumb, have-not. So, he doesn't know any better. "

" Look! It's another "LOLOLOLOL"! I think this text-language is catching on! Oh, but shouldn't it be "LOLLOLLOLLOL"? "

" Just another prime example of having a 1 cent sales tax so everyone that comes to shop helps in paying for the the use of our roads. "

" The City spent a fortune on Master Plans, why don’t they implement the recommendations that are contained in these plans. The plans lay out what the City needs to do for the next 20 years and how to pay for it. Now we have a print shop owner for a Mayor and he has it all figured out. I have never heard the Mayor or anyone on the Council refer to these plans, why is that?. "

" LOLOLOLOLOL......Haven't you people heard, the "Answer" to all our problems is pass the school bond, update the schools, then people will flock to Ontario to live. More people, more revenue and all is right with the world!!!!.... "

" If you wonder how this project is going to get paid for, you better get a good hold on your wallet. Mayor Joe and his little brother Norm, will get it figured out, like the $3.00 per month on the water and sewer bill to pay for the gang officer.Great thinkers always have the answers. "

" Mom and Dad must have new about the pass years ago. Why else would they have us hold the roof of the car up when we passed beneath as kids? "

" I have friends who work for the City water and sewer departments and they tell me we have tens of thousands of feet of water and sewer pipes that need replaced. They tell me the Council and Managers are aware of the problem but they tell them they do not have the money to replace them and there is no plan to do so at this time. This seems to be a reoccurring problem with Ontario, always managing by reaction instead of being proactive. "

" May I suggest you also figure out what you are going to do with SW 4th Ave. it is also past due for a little TLC.. "

" I remember our previous Public Works Director working very hard to adopt system development fees to help pay for our infrastructure. Weren’t the Mayor and his Developer campaign contributors who sued the City to stop the plan.. I believe Larry Tuttle the brother of Councilor Tuttle was one of the plaintiffs in this law suit. Looks to me like we have the fox in the hem house now. "

" If you are looking for another bailout you better get in line quick the State and Federal government are giving out money faster than they can print it. "

" I think we can all agree the underpass needs some work, I doubt it needs replaced as our Mayor chicken little is proclaiming, The big issue here is show me the money and who is going to pay for it? "

" So sloppy Joe is not only an attorney he is now an engineer. That structure is probably 70+ years old and could certainly use some much needed maintenance. It would be nice if sloppy Joe our new City Engineer would share his report on the structural integrity of the underpass with the Public, I am sure it would make for some interesting reading. Once again the biggest problem is going to be funding the repairs, so many problems and so few people to pay. "

" Mr. Tuttle may want to check his facts on the underpass agreement. I am not sure of the Public Works Director he is referring too; Public Works Directors do not have the authority to obligate the City to this type of agreement. The underpass was part of the Yturri Belt line agreement with ODOT entered into by a City Council back in the mid 90’s. I don’t think any Public Works Director had anything to do with it. The State demanded Ontario take over 4th Ave including the underpass in exchange for them spending $10 million on the By-Pass and $16 million on the interchange. For a feller who has lived here most of his life he sure doesn’t seem to know much. "

" Hm. $20 million for an underpass.
How much were they trying to get for the school? I wonder if the city will manage to scrape up the money. If so, it'll really show where the priorities are. "

" The Underpass isnt the only thing falling down around this town. The people who were telling you this have all been run off and now we get to start over again, what a circus "